Economist David Ndii, one of Kenya’s leading political economy thinkers, a popular columnist and a longtime critic of the government’s policy of borrowing heavily from China to build infrastructure, conducted a fascinating hour-long interview with Kenyan philosopher Joseph Kabuthi on the “political economy of coronavirus.”

While Ndii did not directly address China in the conversation, at the end of the interview he spoke at length about “infrastructure-led growth” that China has been instrumental in Africa, specifically Kenya, and predicted that the economic shock caused by the COVID-19 outbreak and the subsequent inability of the government to repay its debts would bring about the end of heavy borrowing to fund roads, railways, and ports.