Africa was especially hard hit by Donald Trump’s “Liberation Day” tariffs, which ended years of duty-free access to the U.S. and triggered a rush to find new markets. China’s announcement that it will remove all tariffs on African imports undoubtedly provides some relief, but it shouldn’t be the only answer, say experts.
India, Southeast Asia, and Japan all offer tremendous opportunities for African exporters, if they know how to break into these markets.
Géraud traveled from Mauritius to Singapore to join a conversation at the Centre for African Studies at Nanyang Technological University, where he was joined by the center’s director Amit Jain and Veda Vaidyanathan, a fellow at the Centre for Social and Economic Progress in New Delhi, for a lively conversation on the future of Africa-Asia relations beyond China.
Show Notes:
- Ghana Business News: Singapore Trade Minister advocates for strengthening Africa-Southeast Asia ties
- Centre for Social and Economic Progress: India, Africa and Critical Minerals: Towards a Green Energy Partnership by Veda Vaidyanathan
- Tech Cabal: Africa holds just 1% of global AI talent. Japan wants to change that by Ifeoluwa Aigbiniode
About Amit Jain and Veda Vaidyanathan:
Amit Jain is a frontier markets specialist who has helped clients access emerging economies. He specializes in capacity building, stakeholder management, and business intelligence. During the course of his 20+ years career, Amit has produced thought leadership content, run leadership programs, and managed difficult partnerships. He has mobilized private sector investments in value chain projects and served as an advisor to private and public sector clients. In 2005, he was awarded the UK Panos-GKP Award for his work on technology and democracy. Amit holds a degree in International Relations and Economics as well as a Post Graduate Diploma in Broadcast Journalism. His expertise is in financing for development, global value chains and the use of natural resources for sustainable development. He has worked on assignments in places such as Somaliland, Pakistan, Papua New Guinea, Myanmar, Burkina Faso, Tunisia, Iran and North Korea. He currently serves as the Director of NTU-SBF Centre for African Studies in Singapore. Before his appointment he ran a private practice advising clients and investors on how to navigate frontier markets across Asia Pacific and Africa.
Veda Vaidyanathan is an Associate Fellow in foreign policy and Security Studies at the Centre for Social and Economic Progress. She examines Asian engagement in Africa from the grassroots across multiple sectors and countries. These include financial services, mining, agriculture, infrastructure, and manufacturing in Zimbabwe, Zambia, Tanzania, Kenya, Ethiopia, and Ghana. Veda is also affiliated with the Institute of Chinese Studies and the Harvard University Asia Centre. She was a 2022-23 Fung Global Fellow at the Princeton Institute for International and Regional Studies at Princeton University.
Transcript:
ERIC OLANDER: Hello, and welcome to another edition of the China in Africa podcast, a proud member of the Sinica Podcast Network. I’m Eric Ohlander, and as always, I’m joined by our Africa editor, Geraud Neema, who is back now in Mauritius. A very good afternoon to you, Geraud.
Good afternoon, Eric. Happy to be back. Yes, I say that you’re back because our folks follow us on YouTube will know that last week we did a show when you were in Singapore, you came out to this part of the world in Southeast Asia for the first time to participate in a fascinating exchange at Nanyang Technological University about the Africa-Asian and the Africa-India relationship.
And it’s a really interesting time for a conversation like that, given all of the changes that we’re seeing in the geopolitical environment, in the trade environment, whatnot. And it was just, I think, a very exciting opportunity for you to come out to a part of the world that I think offers a huge amount of potential for Africa.
GERAUD NEEMA: Yeah, that was really interesting. I was invited by the Center for African Studies at Nanyang Technological University. They had this conversation they wanted to have about Asian and Africa relationship.
It was coming in a moment where we are just coming out of the TICA, the Tokyo International Cooperation on African Development. We’re also coming from the first Singaporean Africa summit where the president of Ghana, John Mahama, was also present. We’re also coming after a few weeks of Indian industrial business meeting with the African businessmen and government in New Delhi.
So it was really against the backdrop of all those events that we had that convening in Singapore where we were invited by Amit Jain, the director of the Center for African Studies. We’re also joined by a friend of us that we know, Veda Vaidyanathan, from the CentRE for Social and Economic Progress in New Delhi. And we’re also joined by Professor Takuo Iwata from Ritsumeikan University in Japan.
So I was there in part of that panel having the discussion around all Asia and Africa interactions, especially in the context of critical minerals debate and commercial trade relationship between Asia and Africa, what to look for. It was a very interesting conversation where we had different stakeholders present in Singapore, diplomats, students, businessmen, trying to understand where African-Asia relationship are going in the future. So it was really, I was happy to be there and part of that conversation.
ERIC OLANDER: It’s a fascinating topic and in part because when the topic of Asia comes up in Africa, oftentimes people will think of China and Japan and to some extent South Korea up in the north and then India’s presence in Africa dates back centuries. And that is often comes up in the conversation. It’s this middle part and this middle part, which is Southeast Asia, the ASEAN states, the 10 ASEAN countries, not a small part of the world, about 700 million people.
It’s a big market. There’s a lot that can happen between ASEAN and Africa, but it doesn’t really come up very often in the discourse in African policy circles when we talk about Asia. But from what I’m getting from you and what we’ve talked about recently is that’s something that should change.
GERAUD NEEMA: Yeah, that’s something that should change because we are now in that context, because when I mentioned the topic, I mentioned critical minerals. We’re in a context where now countries are talking about critical minerals, securing natural resources, access and securing supply chain. And Africa being the continent where you have 30 percent or 35 percent of critical mineral present in the continent, it’s kind of normal that we see now many countries looking into Africa to try to secure access to those natural resources and to be present in the market.
That also explains, for example, where we had Narendra Modi, Prime Minister of India, visiting Africa a few months back and where we had Tokyo, in Tokyo during the TCAD mentioning the Nakala Corridor, the infrastructure project that Tokyo and Japan is intending to invest in Africa. So we have that context where Asian countries are now looking in Africa as a next opportunity. And of course, as you say, you mentioned, we are only looking on the top there, China, India, and sometimes in the middle, we don’t see many of the countries.
It’s the fact that because China has been for Asian countries, China has been the one leading the conversation about Asian presence in Africa to the point today that when we talk about Asian interests in Africa, we always have in the background China’s presence looming in the background, trying to understand if the engagement, if the interest that Asian countries would look or would address to Africa is really genuine or it’s against the backdrop of China’s presence on the continent. It’s case really, especially it’s much more present in the case of countries like India and Japan, which we know have sometimes very difficult relationship with China. But in the middle, as you say, you have all those different countries, Indonesia, the Philippines, the Thailand, the Singapore, that sometimes are falling between the cracks in the conversation of Asia-Africa engagement.
ERIC OLANDER: Well, there’s a lot of history here, too. You mentioned Indonesia, and let’s go back to 1955 and the Bandung gathering that brought together Asian and African countries in solidarity against the Cold War. And there is a sentiment, at least in this part of the world here in Southeast Asia where I’m based, of maybe revitalizing some of that, given the times that we’re in.
Very interesting that last year, just before FOCAC, if you remember, there was an Indonesia-Africa summit. Not too many leaders went there, but there were a lot of representatives from African countries that went to that gathering. That was right before FOCAC, which is the Forum on China-Africa Cooperation.
Also here in Vietnam, we’ve seen Prime Minister Abiy Ahmed from Ethiopia here. We’ve seen Burundi’s leader here. A number of African leaders have been coming through Vietnam.
They see a market of 100 million people. They see a market that is increasingly middle class, middle income country that could potentially consume, and a manufacturing country that could consume some of the products that African countries are selling. So there is potential here for both ideological alignment and at the same time, commercial partnerships.
Very fitting though, that you had this conversation in Singapore of all places. And Singapore’s role in Africa is one that we don’t talk about enough. But remember that the port of Lekki in Nigeria, Singapore was one of the major partners that’s there.
Also in the Simandou mine in Guinea, Chinese company that is involved in that is based in Singapore. Also the Chinese are using Singapore capital markets more and more to syndicate loans and to syndicate some of the BRI financing that then goes out to places like Africa. So as a financial hub, Singapore plays an increasingly important role and one that I could expect that will grow in the future.
GERAUD NEEMA: Yes, exactly. And Singapore is becoming that hub where we see now many Chinese companies and European companies, because we also have what we call traders, mining traders that are setting shops in Singapore where you have Mercuria, you have IMX, which is the trading branch of the Chinese company CMOC. We also have Trafigura.
You also have, as you mentioned, that financial hub where Chinese companies are really now trying to have access to finance, to the market capital, to be able to access African natural resources, to be able to finance their own project in Africa. But yes, we are starting to see a slow, a slow but growing interest toward Africa in Singapore. So far, what I got when I was on the ground, it was not really internally to Singapore.
It was much more external to Singapore. When I say external, it’s like external actor arriving in Singapore and creating that interest to Africa. But we should be expecting because of those dynamics that we start to see much more Singaporean interest in Africa.
We still have a bit of Singaporean interest in Africa when you look into Olam, the agribusiness, which has, I think, which has lots of palm oil plantation in Gabon, in Nigeria and all of that. But beyond that, we still have to see a big attraction of Singapore interest on the continent. We have small countries like, for example, Rwanda or Mauritius here, where I am, which are looking into Singapore in terms of development model.
This is something I’ve learned when I was on the ground where both Mauritius and Rwanda, they have those development board day, which they really took inspiration. And if they went to Singapore, kind of learning how they can learn, how small states can really develop in a context where they have big countries. I’m mentioning those countries, those cases of learning experience, because you mentioned trade, you mentioned economic relation, but I do believe that is also an opportunity for African countries and Southeast Asian countries to learn in terms of like development experience.
And so far, we only look into China. We look into India, we look into Japan, but we tend to forget, as you mentioned, a country like Vietnam, what a country like the DRC, Gabon or Burundi can learn from Vietnam in terms of like development. And you’ve been saying that a lot.
The fact that, you know, Vietnam is not so far from many African countries when it comes to development, when it comes to economic issue.
ERIC OLANDER: It’s right at the same development level. It’s right in the middle, right in the middle there.
GERAUD NEEMA: Exactly. Right in the middle. So I do believe that there’s still an opportunity for African country to learn from country in that part of the world to know how they can move forward, both economically and geopolitics space.
ERIC OLANDER: And one of the key points that we like to make here at CGSP is that Africa doesn’t have to learn from everybody in the world. Africa has some lessons to teach others. And one of the things that we’re seeing is how African countries are adopting Chinese e-mobility technology at a rate much faster, much more creatively and with incredible innovation.
And what I see happening in Ghana, in Kenya, in other countries in Africa, in terms of all the mobility solutions and the way that they are taking, again, Chinese battery technology, Chinese solar technology, Chinese, all of the motorbikes, the bicycles, the boats, the, all of the electrification of e-mobility is happening at a much faster pace in Africa than it’s happening here in Southeast Asia. And I think there are some fascinating business models that can be brought from Africa to here as well.
So we’re looking at mutual exchange. You had a chance to sit down with Amit and Veda on the sidelines of this conference that you participated at, at NTU. You had a chance to speak with them about some of the key issues.
This was recorded last week. So you’ll hear some references to Giro and Veda saying yesterday and today and whatnot. Just bear in mind that that was recorded last week.
Let’s take a listen now to your discussion with Amit and Veda talking about Asia-Africa engagement.
GERAUD NEEMA: Today, I’m here in Singapore where I was invited by the African Studies and Center at NTU, Nanyang Technological University in Singapore to attend a conversation about Asian interest and approach to Africa, because we’ve seen in the last couple of weeks, a surge of Africa plus one summit and event taking place in Asia, in Singapore, where I am right now, and we saw it in India. And we, of course, we had the FOCAC that happened last year. So today I’m going to have a conversation with people that we already know here in the China Global South Project, Veda Vaidyanathan, a fellow of foreign policy and security studies for the Center for Social Economic Program at New Delhi.
And Amit Jain, who is the director of the NTU SBF Center for African Studies in Singapore, is the host of the event that we attended yesterday. And we’re going to have this conversation trying to understand where do we go from here about Africa interests in Asia? Veda, Amit, good afternoon to you guys.
VEDA VAIDYANATHAN: Good afternoon, Geraud. Thank you so much for having us.
GERAUD NEEMA: Good afternoon. Thank you. So you heard my introduction.
So tell me, where are we going from here? I’m going to start with you, Amit. There was recent Singapore, Singapore is basically the new kid in the block on all those Africa plus one summit.
And we are this engagement. Where do we go from here? What do we take, first of all, for what happened about Singapore Africa event that took place a few weeks back in Singapore?
AMIT JAIN: Thanks, Geraud. You know, this has been a momentous year. Indeed, August was a momentous month.
In a matter of two weeks, we had three Africa plus one engagements in this part of the world. We had TICAD 9, which happened in Yokohama. We had the Africa Singapore Business Forum.
The biggest one that Singapore has had in its history. It had well over 700 delegates from over 30 African countries coming in. The surge of interest from the domestic investor community at the event, a lot of media output.
And most importantly, for the very first time, the attendance of an African head of state, President John Mahama of Ghana, was in town. We also had, of course, where Veda is in New Delhi, the CII India Africa conclave. So this was a pivotal month.
You asked me, where do we go from here? I think the trajectory is north as Asia keeps growing, as its relationship with Africa keeps improving, more and more private sector engagements keep happening. I think the economic ties with Africa and Asia is at a good juncture.
GERAUD NEEMA: You talked about private sector, which basically, based on the conversation we had yesterday during the event, where we sense a more of industrial and economic angle and engagement to do what we saw in Singapore and also what we saw in India. Veda, what can you tell us about that engagement, what we say about India and Africa? And you’re even telling me that this time we had much more business side people coming from Africa, coming from India, talking together.
It was much more business oriented at what we used to see. And it was not really the kind of political India Africa plus one. So it was kind of different in a certain way.
So what do you tell us about that and the business angle to it?
VEDA VAIDYANATHAN:
Yeah, sure. You’re right, because the political dialogue usually happens in the India Africa Forum Summit. That hasn’t happened in a decade.
And we’re hopeful that will happen soon. This term, the conference that Amit was referring to was the CII, the Confederation of Indian Industries Africa Business Conclave. Until two years ago, it used to happen with the Ex-Im Bank.
Now it’s CII alone. So this summit was really interesting because it had around 1200 delegates, 20 African ministers and leaders. But because of the absence of the India Africa Forum Summit, this was not only a business conversation.
So you also had political leaders. And from India, you had chief ministers of states. So you had conversations about India, Africa at a subnational level as well.
So for me as a researcher, it was interesting because we got to listen to a lot of ministers from diverse African countries talking about how Africa is navigating a whole lot of global partnerships. And in this navigation, where do they see India adding value or what is it that they wanted from India? A lot of these ministers came with very well-prepared speeches and they made their request or their angle very clear.
And then it was on the Indian side. And when the Indian side, because it’s a CII summit, it was largely driven by industry leaders. And some of the really interesting things was, I think one overarching narrative was that Africa is a very familiar territory for Indian enterprise.
So we had one of the business leaders saying, you know, if any MSME or small or largish corporation wants to enter African markets, they are probably not going to be the first company. So which also sort of speaks to the diaspora that India has in the continent, which is 3.5 million strong. So the idea that these informal works exist, these business partnerships exist, that even when earlier political will was absent, the enterprise and the industry has pushed for relations.
And that continues on. But I think the big difference from a few years ago to now is that we actually see a difference in political will. Africa, I would argue, has come back into New Delhi’s foreign policy calculus and the fact that industry is really trying to push the numbers.
Like, you know, like last year we actually crossed the 100 billion mark on trade and 75 billion in cumulative investments. So there was a lot of conversations on how do we actually push those numbers up to like 150 billion in trade in the next five years. So I foresee a more excited and a more positive and optimistic push to African markets for Indian enterprise.
GERAUD NEEMA:
I’m going to throw into the deep end here on the geopolitical angle on this. How much China is a factor in that’s how India now is approaching Africa, especially to what you’ve mentioned now. For Singapore, not really much of like the China angle to it, but we don’t have Japan in the room, but we know that TICAD also took place.
We had a lot of conversation about Japan investing in the corridor in Mozambique in terms of logistics. We know Japan also use a lot of China angle into justifying why they want to go back to Africa in terms of natural resources and all of that. So how much China played a role or look in the background on how India decision makers or Indian industrials are kind of looking to Africa today?
VEDA VAIDYANATHAN: That’s a really good question. And I think anyone who is studying contemporary geopolitics in Africa would be lying if they told you that China wasn’t a factor. Chinese engagement since 2000 has completely changed the game in how business is conducted in the continent, how foreign policy is conducted.
So I wouldn’t completely discount that at all. I mean, I wouldn’t discount it at all. But I would actually also make the case that with India, and I can say this with a certain amount of confidence because I have been in rooms in China and in the West where they discuss Africa.
China isn’t as much a part of the Africa conversation like it is in the West when it comes to foreign policy leaders in India, because India has its own unique partnership, trade partnerships that go back centuries, political partnerships. When it comes to questions of global governance structures, African partners become very important. When it comes to India’s developmental diplomacy, the new instruments of its development diplomacy, like digital, for instance, African countries become important partners.
So there is a lot of value that India sees in how India’s place in the world and how African partners are very much a part of that imagination. So definitely China is part of that larger five factors that go into that decision making, but it’s not the only one. It’s definitely not China driven.
GERAUD NEEMA: OK, when we are preparing for this podcast, Amit, you are telling me that Singapore is basically a friend to everybody, like in the region, to India, to China. I’m here on the campus of NTU. It was really interesting to see the amount of Chinese students here present, studying here in Singapore and being present in town.
I imagine that Singapore is not looking into China from a perspective of rivalry, of competition either. And here in Singapore, we have now Chinese company coming from Shandong, registering Singapore here, becoming a hub, a starting point for many Chinese companies going overseas, especially in Africa. Yesterday you and I were talking about Simandu, how the winning consortium was basically a Chinese consortium based in Singapore now is expanding to Africa.
So based on what’s happened with the Singapore Africa Forum conversation, was there any China angle to the conversation or if there was any China angle to the conversation in which aspect China came into the conversation? But and of course, if we don’t have that conversation, where Singapore sees itself now playing a role in that geopolitical space in presence in Africa?
AMIT JAIN: Absolutely, Geraud. China is a loose large when it comes to Singapore Africa relationship. So let me count that for you.
If you look at the greater part of the engagement that Singapore forms have with the African countries, it’s in the agribusiness space. Although a lot of those firms have registered in Singapore and traders, interestingly, are largely Indian, the commodity trading industry is largely managed and run by Indian professionals. But guess where most of their business happens?
It’s between Africa and China in the area of of shipping. So Singapore is a major transhipment hub. Much of the material that China needs in terms of its industrial input, one way or the other passes through the port of Singapore.
A lot of the goods that desegregated and sent to the ports in West Africa happen through Singapore. The financing of that trade, of the entire commodity trade happens out of Singapore. Singapore’s commodity trading index is one of the world’s most vibrant one that happens out of Singapore.
So Singapore is key instrument, is a key player in the Asia Africa economic story. And whether it’s India or China or Southeast Asia, Singapore will play a role. At this moment, China’s role is miles ahead of India.
But who knows in the future that can change. But Singapore’s role will remain quite prominent.
GERAUD NEEMA: I remember yesterday, I keep on mentioning yesterday because yesterday we had a conversation with the different stakeholders, diplomats, industrial scholars who came to the talk that we invited us to talk about all this engagement of Asian country and with Africa. I had that question in mind, trying to understand when we look into Singapore, we look into Africa. I’m going to come to India later, but we look into Singapore.
Many people in Africa will not be able to pinpoint Singapore presence in Africa. And we saw that engagement, John Mahama from Ghana coming here for the event. When African country would like to engage with Singapore, what would be a leverage, an interesting leverage African country would be able to look into Singapore to say, you know what, we can really now see Singapore as an opportunity.
You had the pleasure to make me visit here, NTU, where we saw Paul Kagame’s tree being planted on the university, which I know many countries, yesterday we were talking about how Rwanda is really looking into Singapore as a model of development, influencing even the Rwanda Board of Development, how they’re seeing things. Is there anything else they can really learn in terms of Singapore approach for maybe small countries like Mauritius, where I live or other countries when they think of development here?
AMIT JAIN: Indeed, it certainly does. And one of the best examples of that is the development board models. Yeah.
So Singapore’s Economic Development Board is an inspiration to the Rwandan Development Board. If you look at their governance structure, their founding principles and their mission objectives, they are almost replica of what the EDB is. Similarly, by the way, Mauritius, which is a precursor to what Singapore did as a financial, they were inspired by what Singapore was able to do and take the path towards diversifying their economy away from sugar into becoming a financial centre that has an inspiration from Singapore.
But more interestingly, African countries have become proactive in trying to cultivate deep economic relationship with Singapore. And we saw that most prominently in this year’s Africa-Singapore Business Forum when we had the Investment Promotion Board of at least three countries coming in, showcasing what they have to offer and making a very strong pitch to investors at the Africa-Singapore Business Forum. So the three that I can identify for you straight away is the Cote d’Ivoire Investment Promotion Board.
We had the Rwandan Development Board and incredibly Mauritania. They had their own side session at the Africa-Singapore Business Forum for the first time ever. OK, well, I’m getting back to you.
GERAUD NEEMA: So you wanted to add something?
VEDA VAIDYANATHAN: I wanted to interject. And I just wanted to pose a question to you because here we have, I mean, yesterday at the event too, right, we had Amit tell us the Singaporean perspective. I brought an Indian, Takua-san spoke about Japan’s agenda for Africa.
Can you throw us some light on how is Africa thinking about its Asian partnerships? We know for a fact you had traditional deep-rooted partnerships with the West and, of course, a very exciting one with China. But with other partners, Singapore, India, Japan, how do I mean, I know Africa is a big thing and we have to unpack it.
But even from a Congolese perspective or a regional perspective, what is your sense?
GERAUD NEEMA: My sense is like when I look at how African countries in the region are looking into Asia, I don’t think that we are taking Asia seriously. Even a country like China, we’re not taking China seriously. I have the feeling that we are still much more Western leaning kind of countries and we are using China as a leverage to get things from the West.
And I say that because when I look at the nature of engagement that we do have with China in terms of like how much serious we are into understanding China’s approach, how much we are serious into understanding China’s economy, how does it change and how we can really get from China. I don’t see much of an understanding of that. For example, we are still in many countries in Africa where people are still believing that the China of 2000, early 2000, where we can go in Beijing, ask for two billion dollars and we’re going to give natural resources, not understanding that Chinese economy has changed.
There is a new approach of China’s looking into Africa. I don’t sense that as much as we attend FOCAC on large numbers, as much as we are present, as much as big promises are made into FOCAC, as much as we talk about a lot, I don’t still perceive a sense of like deep, serious engagement of saying, you know what, we take China seriously to the point where we really going to strengthen, for example, our diplomatic presence in China, strengthening our diplomats expertise in China, knowing much better about China. I don’t see that. So this is China.
We are talking about the largest trade partner of Africa today. But now try to imagine a country like Singapore or India, Indonesia, Thailand and all of that. We don’t see that much of a conversation.
We don’t see much of like people understanding, OK, we are Cote d’Ivoire. What can we get from Indonesia? What can we get from Laos?
What can we get from Thailand? No, we’re like, no, China is the money. India is also the money.
But between China and India, all the country in the middle are kind of all smashed together, all lost together because we’re not able to kind of say, OK, beside China, beside India, we believe that we can get something from Singapore or we can get something for Indonesia.
AMIT JAIN: There are some countries that are trying to get it right. So, for example, just taking back what happened at the Africa-Singapore Business Forum, Cote d’Ivoire had a hard deal making session.
GERAUD NEEMA: Oh yes, true.
AMIT JAIN: Cote d’Ivoire, yeah. So they had project sponsors actually come in in a room, pre-registered, interested investors showcasing what they want, what the project is, how much of a financing they have and the need and what kind of guarantees that the investment promotion board can can come and offer investors. Others were less prepared.
Yeah, we see that happening bits and pieces. Yeah. In some, the Ghanaians did a very good job at that too.
In fact, Cote d’Ivoire had a roadshow. Yeah, they took a place in one of the best hotels in town to to do a roadshow. So that tells you they’re doubling down on that commitment in trying to diversify their economic links out of the West.
GERAUD NEEMA: And the reality is what you say, it’s true. The reality is like some countries are much more better prepared than others. Like you have Cote d’Ivoire, you have Rwanda, they are way much better.
South Africa as well. Yeah, Zambia. Yes, to a certain extent.
Yes, to a certain extent. They did a roadshow in China as well. Much better prepared.
And they have a very diverse approach into how they see things. Cote d’Ivoire, for instance, is a country where I saw in one, within one kilometre, American project, Chinese project and European project all together. It’s much like, OK, that’s interesting.
A country that’s been able to manage all the geopolitical tension and be able to get that all at the same time. But at the same time as well, you kind of like have the feeling that we can get so much more. We can definitely get so much more coming from Asia.
We can really learn much more from Asian countries than what we are doing right now. And for those who don’t know, we’re going to release the 2024 data on Cobalt in the DRC. Singapore stands quite in a very good numbers in terms of destination, in terms of like trading, how that’s happening here.
When you told me about Singapore and Africa, I was like, maybe we’d have like DRC delegation here being present and all of that. But we didn’t have that. We didn’t have that, which is for me like, that’s strange.
Like your data is telling you that, you know, among the top five destinations you have like, I mean, trading companies, financial hub like Singapore that’s standing tall. You should be able to be able. OK, what can we get from that?
And we don’t see that. And this is for me, some delegates, some delegates. But I would hope that they would have done much better than what they did now.
VEDA VAIDYANATHAN: That’s reflective in the knowledge generation business, right? Because one of the critiques that I often have in India is that we’re not putting in enough money to understand the continent.
GERAUD NEEMA: Yeah, true.
VEDA VAIDYANATHAN: We have a few centers for African studies, but ideally we should have, you know, much more and much more expertise. But the alternative is also true, because I don’t think there’s a lot of centers of India studies in it.
GERAUD NEEMA: South Africa has Indian studies, they have African American studies, they have China studies, except for South Africa. I don’t know if there’s any other Asian study centers in other part of Africa. And that was interesting, the fact that NTU, like Center for African Studies, is the only think tank in Southeast Asia dedicated to Africa.
That looks at Africa from an economic perspective. But when you go to China, we don’t even count the number of African studies centers that we have in China anymore. They’re just like all over the place now.
AMIT JAIN: But let me ask you, is it true that some of the departments of African studies that have been established in India were established at a time when India looked at its relationship with Africa in terms of non-alignment solidarity? And so it’s very much focused on that kind of a South-South cooperation or really ideological in some sense. The time has moved on and it needs to acquire a lot more economic, strong economic angle to it.
VEDA VAIDYANATHAN: Yeah, I think in the, I mean, I don’t fully disagree. I think in the university think tank ecosystem, we have these big centers in JNU, in Delhi University, in Mumbai University. I’m a product of the Center for African Studies in Mumbai University.
But you’re right, these were set up very early on. So when you think about it, they were set up at times when a lot of other spaces weren’t possibly studying Africa. Also set up at a time when the Afro-Asian solidarity movements are very strong.
But I think you are right in the sense how much of strategic contemporary research happens in these centers is questionable. But I think that’s where also a lot of this think tank step in, right? Like CSEP, for instance, we have an Africa vertical that we’ve just started.
The Africa Interglobal Dialogue series, where both of you were guests, is also a way to infuse Africa into public discourse in India. We have think tanks like RIS, VIF, ORF that also does thematic study on Africa. But you’re absolutely right.
We should be paying so much more attention. But I think that’s just a takeaway for the three of us, right? That we need to do more.
GERAUD NEEMA: But I wanted to kind of dig your brain on something still on India engagement in Africa. In that thing, we had a lot of conversation about critical minerals. That’s the hot topic that even African countries want to talk about right now.
It’s really frustrating to me because it’s like all over the place, critical minerals. I guess, guys, can we talk about something else than critical minerals at this point? As if as African, we only see ourselves as an extractive continent where we can only talk about critical minerals or natural resources.
I can hear you. So, yeah, that’s why I’m going to put that topic aside intentionally to say, when you see India approaching Africa. Yesterday was a talk about how India is going to increase its trade numbers with Africa.
When we look in, I’m going to put in the comparison, we look into China, Africa trade with three hundred seventy two billion dollars. But it’s also mainly skewed to natural resources, a lot of natural resources. The top five countries are mainly natural resources driven export to China, cobalt, copper, all of that natural resources.
South Africa is a much more diverse export balance, but it’s also dominated by natural resources. India coming to Africa with that interest to Africa. Let’s put natural resources aside.
What could be an element of like, say, this is India touched into Africa relationship in the way we want to engage in Africa without natural resources?
VEDA VAIDYANATHAN: That’s a really good question.
GERAUD NEEMA: I hope it’s not a curveball.
VEDA VAIDYANATHAN: It’s not. I mean, did I write a whole paper on critical mineral cooperation yet? But I think you talked about it already.
So I’m happy to put it aside. But, you know, let’s just look at trade numbers. And it’s actually really impressive.
In the early 2000s, I think the India Africa trade showed it like five to seven billion. Right. By 2011, it became 67 billion or so.
And then recently crossed 100 billion. So there’s been tremendous growth. And 36 percent of this, which is almost 24 billion dollars, went into manufacturing of Indian investments.
Right. And 23 percent, almost 15 billion, went into the service sector. So it’s definitely fragmented.
And we can’t really frame it as Indian investment. And this is something also that we went in pretty depth yesterday, because the first generation, first wave of investors. So you have the big MNCs that have been very successful in India, and they’re going global like Airtel, which are household names.
And then you also have companies like Cadillac Pharma, right, who’ve also been successful. They’re not huge, but they’re kind of big in India. And when they had to go abroad and go global, they chose markets in Africa.
Now, this is, of course, also because you invest in a manufacturing plant in Ethiopia, you have access to markets surrounding it and also possibly to Europe and US. So there’s that. So the Indian investor is also scattered, fragmented.
It’s not like one layer. And then, of course, there’s the diaspora, right, the second, third generation Indians who have, I mean, there is an Indian identity attached to their businesses, but they’re largely Kenyans and Ugandans and Tanzanians and things. But how do they contribute?
I think it’s very interesting, because in Ghana, I was there a few years ago, and I met this Indian pharmaceutical manufacturer. We went in for a conversation, wanted to understand his experience. He was first generation.
He had just moved from India to Ghana, had set up this entire huge plant, right, which is one of the biggest pharmaceutical manufacturing plants in West Africa. It was inaugurated by the president. And it is a phenomenal space.
I went and visited. It was incredible. And so you have pockets of these where you see areas of sectors where India has a competitive advantage, where it has its strengths, and that it’s able to marry that with interests and incentives given by the host African country.
So I think it’s only a question about not so much a scale, but in targeted investments, there can definitely be high impact. Now, the question is, who’s going to find those opportunities? And then who’s also going to offset some of these risks?
Because there’s huge risks for the Indian industry when it comes to respecting contracts, right? When it comes to, you know, you have folks telling us that, you know, you don’t have visibility, 10 to 15 years, what’s going to happen to land that was given to you? So all of those kinds of concerns, regulatory issues.
GERAUD NEEMA: But talking about that, what kind of instrument and tools that can be put in place by Indian or by Africans in terms of, OK, what should we put in place in a way that we can reassure Indian investors and also Singaporean investors? Because the fact is, Singaporeans also have been basically like Japanese risk-averse investors when it comes to going overseas. They’ve been in Myanmar, in countries in the region, but outside Asia, not so much.
So what can be done by Africans to be able, or even by not only Africans, but also by those countries, Singapore and India, to be able to mitigate the risk they’re perceiving that’s on the continent?
VEDA VAIDYANATHAN: I’ll give you a quick answer before I give it to Amit, because I feel like this is entirely his area of expertise, but I’m just writing this paper. So sorry to bring it back to critical minerals.
GERAUD NEEMA: Go ahead. It’s the hot topic of the moment anyway.
VEDA VAIDYANATHAN: But it’s titled like Silent Architects, the role of Indian industry in operationalizing India’s critical mineral diplomacy. But I think a lot of takeaways also will reflect other industries as well. But in this paper, what we did was we had extensive consultations with Indian industry who are already investing in Africa or are looking to invest in Africa.
And it was fascinating. And the short answer to your question is, there are a series of steps that the Indian government can do to shift some of this risk in the form of making financing available, blended financing, helping identify joint ventures, bringing PSUs and private investors together. And in some places…
GERAUD NEEMA: PSUs, for those who don’t know.
VEDA VAIDYANATHAN: Public sector, sector undertakings. And in some of these countries, Indian investors are very interested in. India does not have a strong diplomatic presence.
Some of those concerns are being addressed. Mineral attaches are going to be attached to certain Indian missions and certain resource rich African countries. So you see some policy drivers and instruments being put in place.
But on the other hand is also the steps that the host countries can take, which I think Amit can speak to a lot. But it’s also once you have some kind of confidence in the host country and that the stability of the local regulatory political environment, then I think that will provide some kind of confidence.
AMIT JAIN: You know, I tend to think it’s a function of mindset. Not that Singapore firms or investors are any strangers to political risk around Asia. And yet they are happy to invest there.
It’s no different than what happens in Africa. In some ways, the regulatory environment in many African countries is so much better than countries in Asia, Southeast Asia. Yes, absolutely.
So there are the way to look at it is if I think about Singapore’s engagement with Africa, the four key pillars. The first is market diversification. There’s a need for market diversification like anywhere else in the world.
So Africa, as a continent of 1.3 billion people, consumers is obvious, is an obvious destination here. With the African continent of free trade area slowly coming into play, it has certainly become a lot more a compelling case for investors to see Africa as a strategic future. The second is that there is a new interest in driving green growth.
So Singapore is among those countries in Southeast Asia that has introduced a carbon tax. Some of its companies that’s come into play. Singapore is taking a lead role in the use of carbon credit to offset some of the attacks.
So you can see a series of agreements being signed. Two of them are implementation agreements are actually in African countries that Singapore has. One is Ghana, the other is Rwanda.
So this is coming into place. The third is this reordering of global supply chains. So this excessive dependent on one or the other, it makes Singapore very vulnerable.
So Singapore saw that very clearly during the COVID years, right? And fourth is, of course, this whole idea of being a facilitator, seeing its future tied to a bigger markets, to fast growing markets. So as the trajectory of economic growth in Africa improves, so will Singapore’s relation with Africa.
When it comes to risk, we just have to give it a little bit more time. I am very confident that with the emergence of the Afcra, the Africa credit rating agency, I mean, already there is a conversation happening among the big four credit rating agencies. Have we put adequate resources into understanding our markets?
And with that, already one can see the sign of credit rating reviewing some of their approaches to African countries. In fact, Japan has been forward thinking, if I’m not mistaken, very recently, JBIC upgraded its credit rating for many African countries. So this is very positive in the positive direction, allows African countries to borrow, go to the international market and get money at much better terms than they have to otherwise.
GERAUD NEEMA: I’m happy that you mentioned Japan, because I wanted to segue to Japan-India relationship into the engagement with Africa now in the context of China. When we were here, we talked about a topic that was one of the topics I wanted to do my master degree research, the Africa-Asia growth corridor. It was an initiative between India and Japan to be able to work together in the way to approaching African countries with the background of like kind of like countering Chinese influence in the region.
But there was not much of a traction after that. But recently, Prime Minister Modi went to Japan, I think, I believe. And they kind of talked about it again to see how they can revive that initiative.
So my question to you guys, Singapore is friend to everyone. You don’t need to talk about from a Singapore perspective, but just much more from a knowledge perspective. And you can really see that both on Indian and Japan perspective as well.
But the question for me is like, when those countries are approaching Africa, how much element is it about competition with China? How much is it about competing against China? And how much is it about we are remaining open to cooperate with China on the continent?
And mentioning cooperating, because you were telling me yesterday how when you were doing your research on the ground, it was really interesting in SGI in Kenya, you see Indian businessmen selling the certain products with Chinese who were working on the SGI, which most of the time do not come up into the narrative of like Indian engagement in Africa. So how much is like competition, readiness to cooperation, or all of that is only competition overall?
VEDA VAIDYANATHAN: Okay, there are two big questions here. Let me try and unpack the last one first. The China-India conversation or the dialogue on the political foreign policy landscape is very different from what’s actually happening on the ground, right?
And the example that I gave of you was, but those are also Indian diaspora. I’m a Kenyan in that sense. Contractors in Mombasa who were suppliers to the SGI, which is very fascinating.
And you see many levels of these, right? In Dar es Salaam, and a lot of these Chinese infrastructure projects, they use Tata Tipper lorries. But for them, Tata is an African brand.
It’s not an Indian brand.
GERAUD NEEMA: Political narrative, it’s an African remix.
VEDA VAIDYANATHAN: Go on the ground, all of these, I mean, capital follows capital. We’ve been talking about it for two weeks now, right? Whatever is the least price, best efficient product gets picked up.
So there’s definitely interactions at that level. But then Japan-India thing, you’re right. And you were referring to the Asia-Africa growth, which actually went nowhere.
There was a vision statement that was out, and that’s about it. But what’s actually interesting is there are two reasons. There are two things.
And it comes back to, the first comes back to the point on risk, right? And we know, and Tako-san yesterday spoke to, they famously on Chinese aversion, I mean, sorry, the Japanese aversion to high-risk projects. But I think the way they see India is, one is to establish industrial hubs in India, to manufacture in India, to sell to African markets.
That’s already happening. Daikin has manufacturing units and all of that. The other one is a new set of initiatives where we can build trilateral models, where we work with African partners.
So I think something called the Economic Security Cooperation Initiative, the Economic Region Initiative, Indian Ocean Africa, these things have just come out. Obviously, it’s too early for us to tell if this will go anywhere, and hopefully it will not go down the AGC route. But honestly, Gerard, I mean, I know that you’re a very serious cynic when it comes to this, but not everything has to do with China.
GERAUD NEEMA: Yeah, true.
VEDA VAIDYANATHAN: Because I think these two companies, I mean, these two industries, they see the sheer potential of African market, right? These are markets where you actually can make a ton of money.
GERAUD NEEMA: Yeah.
VEDA VAIDYANATHAN: And you don’t have the wherewithal to enter these markets alone. Let’s try and go with this guy. So I think that’s also the thinking.
I think the real attraction, because if it was just high-risk landscapes with no potential, then who’s going to go in for a geopolitical conflict? It’s not that. Sure, there’s a geopolitical element, but I think in brass tacks, it comes down to the economic potential.
GERAUD NEEMA: You’re right. And you’re right to pinpoint the fact that not everything is about China. We had that debate within CGSP.
We were writing a story about Prime Minister Modi visiting Ghana and all of that. And one of our colleagues framed it about India trying to counter Chinese influence. In turn, we were like, no, you should not be framing it like this because it won’t be presented good because it’s also about India.
But there was also a pushback within us to say, come on, the Indian public media and all the media is basically putting China in the forefront of that conversation. India is going back to Africa to counter China. The Indians are now interested in Africa to counter China, which basically, I think it’s not a very useful narrative to present because at the end, when as an African, you’re like, okay, so you’re only coming to us because China is here.
It’s the same feeling that we get when, for example, we have Americans, Europeans. India is not the only one in that debate. The EU, all of that, like people are like, guys, all of you here are now coming to us because China is here.
If China was not here, we won’t be coming here. European would come and talk to an African stakeholders. You know, we want resources and all that.
But in the back of the conversation, we want to make sure that, you know, it’s not going to Chinese projects. So can we talk about things about that unrelated to China? That the feeling that we do have as an African are kind of legitimate to know.
We want to measure the level of your engagement and sincerity in our relationship that has nothing to do with China.
VEDA VAIDYANATHAN: But this is why yesterday we were talking about the importance of history. I think I would push back so strongly if you try to, I mean, if framing India in the same lens as Europe.
GERAUD NEEMA: You should stop framing it like this because most of like, when you look at Indian posts and all of that, you’re like, first of all, Modi goes to Ghana. The sub line is like, they want to counter check. Why do you need to put China in the headlines of a conversation?
AMIT JAIN: You know, here’s my take on it, and I could be wrong. A lot of Indian media journalists have studied in the West. And our exposure, well, I take that back, both for Singapore and India, the exposure to the English language media by and large in one way or the other is framed out of the West.
Why? Because most of our media gets its sources from the three newsfeed agencies that are based in the West. So over time, they don’t recognize this, but they internalize this kind of bias as the view of the world.
Funny enough, you know, it doesn’t matter whether it’s an Indian company or a Western company investing in upstream in the oil and gas or the mineral sector. Who’s going to buy? It’s China.
So what’s this point about, you know, we need to secure our supply of critical… I think Japan has understood this. They recognize they’re not growing fast enough.
Their economy has more or less plateaued. They’re still a very wealthy country. I think for a while now, no Japanese policymakers will tell you that their Africa strategy is built upon competition with China.
GERAUD NEEMA: By any measure. But yet, in the last TCAD, Japan announced that they’re going to put $800 million on the Nakala Corridor project in Mozambique, connecting Zimbabwe and Mozambique. And the conversation was like, we want to build that because we want to build our own supply chain independent from China.
I was like, why do you need… Who said that? I don’t think a Japanese…
The Nikkei said that. The Nikkei talked about this. That’s it.
That’s a media. That’s a media.
VEDA VAIDYANATHAN: I have to push back here because when the prime minister was both in Ghana and in Namibia, and I’m not doing this to my own horn. I did write op-eds about both of them. And in both of those op-eds, it’s not a China takedown, right?
So I think it’s also… There is different conversations happening. It’s also where you want to listen to.
But I think the bigger point is this. Listen to the prime minister, the Indian prime minister’s speech in Namibian parliament. The same…
And I started one of my pieces saying that. And I was actually objectively very impressed with the speech because we are talking about foreign leaders coming into African soil and giving speeches. There’s the famous Hillary Clinton.
The same week that President Trump asked the Liberian president how he spoke, you had the Indian prime minister go and speak to Namibian values, speak to Namibian cultural ethos, right? And I think it’s important because a lot of these Asian partners, especially India, there is some value. And I know you don’t really take this very seriously, but I think there’s some value in shared histories.
There’s a lot of understanding of the tonality of this relationship. It is in transaction. And it’s not just a sentence.
It’s not do, no, don’t. The way that this relationship is imagined, right? Because I think, see, you and I are not risk analysts for a bank where we only have to deal with what is happening right now.
We can also dwell into the realm of what’s actually possible. And I think if we lean into the historical, you know, the solidarities and all of the common political structural frameworks that we operate within, it is not about countering China. India’s engagement in Africa is not about that.
If you think or if you read about something where that’s the core argument, it is exceptionally reductionist. And I think you’re completely missing the point.
GERAUD NEEMA: I’m really happy that you say that. And I really hope, and I really hope in the future, especially when you’re going to talk about critical minerals, I really hope not to read between the lines of Indian official or Indian media. It’s about countering China.
And I’m really saying that because from an African perspective, we really appreciate having third party engagement that’s not about China. We’d appreciate to go to New York, Paris, New Delhi, Tokyo, where people are talking about us without anything implying somehow, even without even mentioning China, but without mentioning China, without mentioning China. You see what I mean?
Like talking about all the elements that describe someone without mentioning that. We’d like very much to do that because at the end, when that kind of thing is not done, when the narrative is not shaped correctly, people will be like, OK, it’s about them competing against each other and they’re using us as a pawn in those competition. It’s not about us.
And I really hope that really in the future that I’m really wrong. And when I say wrong, I’m really hoping that in the critical mineral space where we all know what is the big issue on the table. So we’re going to wrap up this conversation on much more forward looking perspective.
Your last comment, how do you see the future of Asian countries? And let’s say pick one, Singapore in your case, Ahmed, on the engagement with Africa.
AMIT JAIN: Well, I think the future of Africa-Asia relationship is in the hands of Africans. The greater agency they exercise, like Rwanda has, like Ghana has, like many others have. I think that will be the direction of travel for Asia-Africa relationship.
Asia’s growth story is there, but it’s towards the latter end. The future of the global growth is dependent entirely on where Africa goes. Veda?
VEDA VAIDYANATHAN: No, very similar. And I think a lot of scholars, including you, you’ve written about this, right? Fola Shadi Sule has written about this.
Paul Nantulli has written about this. Zainab has written about this. The power of the African agency is shaping these conversations and these relationships.
So I think as much as Indian investors or Indian political leaders or Indian foreign policy experts see potential and promise in the African continent, I think that has to really be led by folks on the ground. And I think we’ll follow that lead.
GERAUD NEEMA: And I think that as an African, it’s really time for us to start to take Asia much more seriously. And I remain skeptical about how much serious we are about our foreign partners. And I really hope that I’m wrong, but I really hope that in the next five to 10 years, we see much more serious engagement driven by African agenda, driven by African perspective, driven by African objective in our engagement with China, India, Singapore, Japan, South Korea, and all of that.
Otherwise, we’re still going to find ourselves in the same kind of discussion, which is kind of depressing. But it was really happy to have you guys for this conversation. Thank you.
And yeah, it was a pleasure. So that’s going to be all for us here in Singapore. And Eric, back to you.
ERIC OLANDER: Geraud, what a fascinating discussion. I wish I could have been there with you. I was only an hour away, you know, so close.
Barely, you know, just an hour away. But I’m so glad you had the chance to come out to this part of the world and to see it firsthand. And I think it reinforces two key themes that I heard in your discussion.
Number one is everything isn’t about minerals. And when we talk about Africa, increasingly, especially when we hear from the Europeans and the Americans now, it’s critical minerals, critical minerals, critical minerals. And it was so refreshing for you guys to kind of remind everybody that there’s more than just minerals.
And it’s not all about China. Again, Asia is the largest continent in the world. India is big, but Southeast Asia is also big.
This is 700 million plus people. So that, too, was very refreshing. So I really enjoyed the discussion.
GERAUD NEEMA: And yes, I really, I was really happy about that. Veda pushed me hard on that because when I was trying to frame India, even Japan engagement, India and Japan engagement in Africa against China, she said, no, not everything should be or not everything is about China. That’s why it was really refreshing.
I say, yes, I’m really happy that you’re pushing me back on that narrative because the reality is we hear that kind of narrative and the shaping of that narrative coming from official state media, for example. You remember a few weeks back, we had a discussion internally where we were kind of wondering how to shape a certain narrative. And we heard Narendra Modi’s trip to Africa is not about China.
I was like, I pushed back by saying, but the state media, the official media, you know, those, you know, governmental media behind was saying it’s to counter China. And I was like, yes, I’d be happy to really have narrative coming out of New Delhi and Tokyo about engagement to Africa for what it is not about China. We don’t want to be hearing like former prime minister of Japan mentioning China without mentioning China, you know, mentioning the big characteristic of what China could be in Africa, but we’re not mentioning China, leaving the idea that everything is about China.
So that’s why I was really happy that when Vedha pushed me, even Amit also pushed me by saying, not everything should be about China. And that is very important because when not everything is about China, African stakeholders and decision makers can approach those countries for talking about their own relationship and how they can advance those relationships beyond the simple geopolitical tension that plays out in Asia. And that’s coming out in Africa as well.
So yeah.
ERIC OLANDER: One of the things that China has done very well over the past 10 to 15 years, maybe even the time when you were a student in Beijing at Jemming University, is that they’ve really developed very robust area studies and language studies about Africa. So Zhejiang Normal University has a very strong Africa studies program. Peking University also.
Tsinghua has a number of Africa scholars there. Yunnan and also Hunan are two other provinces with very strong Africa connections and regional area studies. Also having Kiswahili, Bantu and other African languages that are being taught in China.
We don’t see that in other parts of Asia, especially here in Southeast Asia. So the program that Amit runs at NTU is the only program of its kind in Southeast Asia. I was shocked to learn that.
That is very frustrating and it’s particularly frustrating in a place like Indonesia that still rides on the Bandung kind of spirit, but yet does not develop and does not invest in the area studies between Asia and Africa, which is so fundamental. And so one of the things I think that’s needed here in Asia is more area studies about Africa and to follow China’s example in that. And we see a lot of young people in China actually signing up for these programs.
And at the same time, it would be great if in African universities there were area studies about Southeast Asia to develop the competencies in understanding the diversity that’s here. Because in many ways, Southeast Asia is similar to Africa, where there is not a consistent language, not consistent religions, not consistent ethnicities, a lot of diversity, a huge climate differences. Also, the impact of climate change is very similar, ASEAN and Africa.
So ASEAN contributes about 6% to global climate emissions every year. Africa is about 3 or 4%, yet they are suffering both disproportionately from the effects of climate change. Lots of similarities there.
But on this question of the literacy, that is how much do Africans know about Southeast Asia and India, and how much do Indians and Southeast Asians know about Africa? What’s your perspective on that?
GERAUD NEEMA: Not much, not much. And during the conversation, Veda even mentioned that the fact that in the case of Africa, you don’t have many, maybe except in South Africa, you don’t have many universities where you have an Africa-India center of studies. You don’t have that.
You don’t have like even US or Europe or Africa, China, Africa study center in many universities in Africa, you don’t have that. This shows you how much on the continent, we don’t really take, I think, I don’t think that we take our relationship with Asia seriously. I do believe beyond Asia, I don’t believe that we take our relationship outside any major power seriously to the point where we focus and we need to be, we want to learn about them.
And this is for me, the sad part, is a very sad part because those countries are for me, the countries are in the middle, they’re similar to us where we have much more opportunity to learn. A country like Indonesia, you’d expect given the climate, the weather they have in Indonesia, you’d expect Indonesia will have very intimate agricultural business relationship with country like the DRC, the Gabon, the Central African Republic, all those countries where we have like the rainforest happening. But you don’t have that.
You don’t have those kind of synergy. You don’t expect other countries to have such much similarity, the Thailand, all of that. But you do not have that, which is for me is very surprising.
And very shocking. And I think that there is a lot to be done there in terms of learning opportunities that we have to engage in voluntarily. It has to be a commitment that we engage ourself into knowing much more about that part of the world.
ERIC OLANDER: But there are some practical barriers that get in the way of it. We tried at CGSP with our team to have a group meeting in Vietnam. And our colleagues who come from Kenya and Zimbabwe, not allowed in the country.
They don’t give visas to, and there’s probably more countries. The reason why, it was not explained to me by the visa agents why, but my suspicion is because there’s quite a bit of drug trafficking that comes from African and Africans. Again, a lot of the Africans are used as mules to carry and ferry drugs.
They don’t necessarily know that they’re carrying drugs, but drug trafficking in Southeast Asia is a crime punishable by death. And they will tell you on the airplane, if you are carrying drugs, and this is across Southeast Asia, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Singapore, that you will be arrested and punished. And so it is very difficult because the passport privilege that most African countries unfortunately lack, as you know, traveling even within Africa.
GERAUD NEEMA: Exactly. Right?
ERIC OLANDER: I mean, this is not even just a thing outside of Africa is a problem in the ASEAN African relationship. However, you and the rest of the team will be coming out to Indonesia in January. So you’ll be back in Indonesia.
So we’ll be talking about this topic again. You’ll be going to Indonesia, but back in Southeast Asia. And we’ll be talking about this ASEAN African relationship that we hope will start to blossom.
And we hope we’ll start to see more engagements. And we’re going to have some conversations with folks in Jakarta in January. So we’ll be back to this topic again.
Sheryl, thank you so much for the trip and all the great work that you did in Singapore with Amit and Veda. Also, we want to give a big shout out to Amit Jain at Nanyang Technological University and the Center for African Studies there for making this all happen. I had a chance to speak there last or this year.
Your time there was a little bit less contentious than my time there. People didn’t appreciate the white guy, but talking about Africa. Nonetheless, though, it’s all healthy to have these conversations.
So we’re really thrilled that you were able to do that.
GERAUD NEEMA: For those who are missing the point, we made a full podcast about that conversation on who’s who has the right to talk about an Africa relationship. So I’m going to invite you to go on up on our playlist. You’re going to find the show is on YouTube and you’re going to.
It’s very interesting. And we’re going to learn a lot about that conversation.
ERIC OLANDER: It was a great show. It got a lot of feedback and we’ll put a link to it in the show notes because it’s relevant for this discussion. And so it’s great.
But we’re going to continue to talk about Africa-Asia and Africa-India relations coming up in the months ahead. And and again, thank you for your time today. Really appreciate it.
We’ll we’ll continue our discussion. That’ll do it for this edition of the China in Africa podcast. Again, if you want to follow all the great work that you and the team around the world for CJSP is doing, the best way to do it is go to ChinaglobalSouth.com.
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So that’ll do it for Jiro and the rest of the team around the world. Thank you so much for listening. We’ll be back again next week with another episode of the China in Africa podcast.
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